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NEW RNC WEB VIDEO: THE STAKES
By Michael Brodkorb | October 20, 2006
UPDATE: This video is outraging the Democrats.
UPDATE #2: I’m hearing this ad will begin airing in Minnesota this weekend.
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Topics: Uncategorized | 121 Comments »
October 19th, 2006 at 9:58 AM
I just posted about it here. What a powerful ad!!!
October 19th, 2006 at 10:20 AM
wow… typical scare tactics…
praying on the knee jerk types, nice, very nice
October 19th, 2006 at 10:48 AM
Eh, this video doesn’t work. Probably like the content.
Please have a look, Mike.
October 19th, 2006 at 11:16 AM
A fear laced one much like the ’64 ads with the little girl picking flowers and the mushroom cloud.
This could have an adverse effect if people stop to think that it is showing that our enemy is not Iraq, and those who attacked us 5 years ago are still free to do what the ad is suggesting they are doing.
October 19th, 2006 at 11:44 AM
Republicans are so desperate these days. What they dont understand is the fear card isnt going to work this year. Theyve been completely discredited when it comes to national security.
9/11 happened on their watch, Iraq has been a complete failure, more terrorists have been recruited as a result, Afghanistan is sliding back to failed state status if its not already there, North Korea has built nuclear weapons on their watch, Iran continues to enrich uranium on their watch, The Middle East has fallen apart on their watch, loose nuclear material continues to lay around in the former USSR on their watch, they havent implemented the 9/11 commission reccomendations, and Hurricane Katrina showed theyre unable to respond to national emergencies.
What are their big accomplishments?
They created a new bureaucracy in the department of homeland security that was originally a Democratic idea, theyve created the Patriot Act and the new Military Commissions Act that each contain measures that take away civil liberties from Americans and make the Presidency far more powerful than the founders ever intended. They approved a wall that covers a third of the border. And they seem to point to the foiled British terrorist attack, which was done with the very methods they ridicule, intelligence gathering and law enforcement.
For this party to try to scare people into voting for them by implying Americans will die if they vote Democrat is disgusting and completely contrary to their record. The truth of the matter is, Republicans are ineffective at fighting and controlling our enemies but are quite effective at eliminating American freedoms. Eliminating our freedom to protect our freedom doesnt seem very logical. Ben Franklin said “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety”. I know the American people are smart enough to understand that, but clearly the Republican Party is not.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:01 PM
Titus, our enemy is not Iraq, and never was. And we’re in Iraq because our enemy is there.
Do you need a diagram?
And the `Daisy’ as you refer to was a Jim Lehrer/LBJ creation.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:40 PM
I ask all those who criticize the current conduct of the War on Terror: What the heck is your solution? Do you think we can negotiate with these people? Do you think if we just quit fighting them they will become peaceful poppy farmers? Al Qaeda says that Iraq is the central front in the war against the infidels. If Bush tells you the same thing, how can he be wrong?
October 19th, 2006 at 1:08 PM
This from the party that couldn’t even protect their own pages. How can we believe they can protect the country?
October 19th, 2006 at 1:10 PM
So where is the DNC web video quoting the terrorists praying for us to stay the course in Iraq? And quoting the NIE report saying the war is good for the terrorists and bad for us?
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, GOP, and your goose is going to get cooked on November 7.
October 19th, 2006 at 1:13 PM
Peter:
“Everything that happens that’s bad is the current administration’s/party’s fault.”
Yet you’re strangely silent on the al-Queda cells in this country — that were in operation prior to 9/11 — that the Gorelick wall prevented us from ‘connecting the dots’ to.
Funny, that.
BTW, Pete, you forgot to blame Bush for the recent earthquake in Hawaii. A mere oversight on your part, I’m sure.
October 19th, 2006 at 1:15 PM
Again and again and again the republicans try to fear card. Bin laden…the man responsible for the twin towers attack runs free. Zarqawi cornered three times, bush says he didn’t matter til he was accidently killed in a bomb attack. Iraq now a hotbed of terrorist activity, made so by bush’s invasion of a neutral country. One that had absolutely nothing what so ever to do with the twin towers attack. Cheney running around before the last election..they terrorist want to set off dirty bombs, Snow the terrorist are killing people to support democrats in this election. For three and a half years the terrorist have been killing people in Iraq. So what makes the killings now in support of democrats.
Again the republicans are down right desperate and they will continue to smear, slur and flame they don’t know how to do anything else. There’s Cunningham, Abramoff, Scanlon, Hadley, Ney, Foley, just to name a few..What have republicans done to our country???
October 19th, 2006 at 1:17 PM
BriVT — substitute the word `intern’ for `pages’ for your daily dose of irony.
And you’re a few weeks late with the Foley stuff. It’s over, and BTW, he resigned. As he should have. Hope he rots.
October 19th, 2006 at 1:21 PM
Morons. Desperate morons.
October 19th, 2006 at 1:22 PM
J. Ewing -
The simple answer is this: we won’t let dumb crackers set out foreign policy.
The long answer is this:
We can’t negotiate with Bin Laden and we won’t. But we can negotiate with the millions of moderate and non-jihadi muslims in the Middle East. This is a fact that has been repeatedly by the Bush administration, and is one of the few things they are correct about.
Terrorism is evil. It lurks in the shadows and cannot thrive where people of good conscience will stand up against it. That’s why we need to reach out to muslims both in the Middle East as well as in our own country.
I like the idea of spreading democracy in the Middle East; I think most muslims like that idea. But we’ve lost all credibility on this issue, and we cannot salvage it until we acknowledge that we are on the wrong path. “Hearts and minds.”
You need both carrots and sticks to win this war.
Just as importantly, as the Dubai ports deal illustrated (and the stubborness to protect a number of industries, such as the chemical and nuclear industry and, at lest initially, the airlines), the GOP is too tied to powerful interests that would profits ahead of national security.
We need to “drain the swamp” both in the Middle East and in Washington, DC.
October 19th, 2006 at 1:34 PM
There are not as many yokels in Minn as this ad presumes.
Sure there’s a small hard core bush believin bunch that can be convinced that Osama’s wants to come the the Mall of the Americas and blow them up but fortunately there’s not that many really stupid people available.
October 19th, 2006 at 1:45 PM
Every day I regret my BC’04 vote. HUGE mistake, and this kind of ad just makes me even more angry.
October 19th, 2006 at 1:48 PM
J.Ewing:
al Qaeda is in Iraq because American troops are there. Even the GOP now realizes that there has to be a redeployment of troops; they’re just trying to figure out how to *sell it* to their supporters.
I believe Kerry and Murtha have laid out their plans some time ago. They were roundly criticized by the right. Now the talk from the Baker commission and the Pentagon is saying the same thing as Kerry and Murtha said.
We remove ourselves from the middle of the Iraqi civil war; bring significant troops home; redeploy some to Afghanistan to help with the NATO forces there; and leave some outside of Iraq but close by as a rapid response force.
These are all ideas that various Democrats have put forth over the last year.
Maybe they weren’t covered on Fox.
October 19th, 2006 at 1:51 PM
this is the best democratic ad i’ve seen this cycle.
i mean, this IS about the total failure of the republicans to reduce the terrorist threat and the staggering increase in terrorist attacks and recruitment, right?
October 19th, 2006 at 2:01 PM
Please, please, you DFL kool-aiders that lurk here — PLEASE come out with an ad saying what you’re saying here: we should surrender in Iraq, and terrorism is no big deal.
I beg you. Please.
And I’ll say it right here, right now — ya’ll are going to be VERY disappointed after election day. Very.
October 19th, 2006 at 2:08 PM
JonM:
So to you, there’s no difference between 16-17 yr old pages, and 22 yr old interns? And no difference between unwanted attention and consensual acts? Right, a member of the “It’s okay in you a Republican” school.
Foley resigned after being confronted by the media. Hastert and pals LIED when they claim he was forced to resign by the righteous GOP leadership. AND it turns out Foley didn’t want to run for re-election, but was pressured by Rove and the NRCC.
Again, I guesss those points didn’t get made by Rush on weren’t mentioned on Fox…
October 19th, 2006 at 2:11 PM
That bin Laden and Zawahiri are still roaming around and making threats five years after the fact … is the voter not supposed to chalk that up to the ineptitude of the party in power that whole time?
October 19th, 2006 at 2:14 PM
“Everything that happens that’s bad is the current administration’s/party’s fault.”
Um, jonm…I actually never said that everything that happens that is bad is the current administration’s and GOP’s fault. I said the foreign policy of the Bush administration and the GOP is a complete failure and has been unsuccessful on nearly every front. That is why them running on national security scare tactics is laughable and will be unsuccessful.
As far as terrorist cells go, some of the 9/11 hijackers received passports and entered the country in 2000 before Bush took office and some received them and entered in 2001 after Bush took office. Even removing 9/11 from the list of security failures, the GOP’s foreign policy record is still full of failures and unsuccessful policies.
October 19th, 2006 at 2:22 PM
“We can negotiate with the millions of Muslims…”? OK, what “carrot” are you going to offer? Are you going to blow yourself up, or offer to push Israel into the ocean, or just surrender Iraq and Afghanistan back to the radicals, to appease the moderates whom we have made, or will make, radical?
How do you negotiate with “millions,” anyway? How do you negotiate with people whose starting point is your death? Do you suppose we could compromise, and allow them to kill only half of us?
That’s the problem with liberals; they want to see the world the way they want it to be, not the way it really is. Thankfully, there aren’t that many “yokels” who are that self-destructively stupid. If you don’t think we should fear the terrorists, then what ARE you afraid of?
October 19th, 2006 at 2:34 PM
This ad sucks as a political tool, and doesn’t really deserve the attention it’s getting. I came over from TPM to see it, and, frankly, I’m disappointed.
Where’s that old Republican spirit? Can it be the story rings hollow now, even for the faithful?
I agree about the “yokels” comment above. They’re getting harder to find all the time, and this ad ain’t helping the cause much at all.
October 19th, 2006 at 2:41 PM
Yes, a very powerful ad, indeed. I agree that it is a scary reminder that Osama Bin Laden is still on the loose after all of this time. With over five years to catch Osama Bin Laden, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Co. have FAILED. It is time to give someone else a try, so that we can all be safe.
October 19th, 2006 at 2:50 PM
JonM(19):
“we should surrender in Iraq, and terrorism is no big deal.” Wrong again, Jon.
1) We’ve done everything we can from a military POV in Iraq. The presence of US troops is causing more problems than it’s solving. US military force CANNOT solve the problems that exist in Iraq today. Now it’s time for diplomacy and other strategies. That’s not my definition of surrender, maybe it’s yours.
2) Iraq had little or nothing to do with global terrorism prior to our invasion. If BushCo really wanted to fight terrorism, they would have stayed in Afghanistan and finished the job there. THAT would have won “hearts and minds”. The US had the support of the rest of the world for our actions there. Or maybe we could have spend some of the billions being spent in Iraq on protecting the homeland or implementing the reccomendations of the 9/11 commission. That’s how you ACTUALLY fight terrorism and make the country safer.
That is the Dem message, and that’s why the polls show the country turning away from the GOP.
Until the Iraqi people tal
October 19th, 2006 at 3:09 PM
JonM in MN. Pls rprt to IRQ.
October 19th, 2006 at 3:10 PM
JonM(23):
I know Bush has tried to take credit for it, but a “carrot and stick” approach, carried out by the Clinton WH, led to Libya’s change of heart regarding WMD’s. And while Clinton’s agreement with NKorea wasn’t a great deal, it did prevent them from using the plutonium rods. In simple terms, it bought the US time. Unfortuneately, Bush and Bolton tried the “all stick no carrot” approach and now we have NKorea testing plutonium-based WMDs. Thanks, W.
How do you talk to “millions of Muslims”? The same way Reagan and others talked to millions of Russians. You show them the benefits of democracy. It helped that back then the US could still claim the moral high ground. Today, not so much. Thanks, W.
Do you not see the irony of your statement “just surrender Iraq and Afghanistan back to the radicals”? The Iraqi insurgency was predicted before the invasion. The decision to disband the Iraqi army, which might have been able to prevent a large-scale insurgency, was a political decision made by Rummy and BushCo. It was made against the reccommendation of the State department. As far as Afghanistan, Bush HAS essentially done what you claim. He “cut and ran” from Afghanistan to Iraq. Now we have a too-small contingent of NATO troops trying to retake control of the country. Thanks, W.
If the US had stayed in Afghanistan, taken the time to get OBL and *really* get rid of al Qaeda and the Taliban, and THEN worked to rebuild the country – THAT would have spoken volumes to the millions of Muslims around the world. But Iraq had more targets for Rummy, and lots of oil. Thanks, W.
October 19th, 2006 at 3:12 PM
J. Ewing,
I’d like to see a diagram that explains how killing 650,000 people who didn’t attack us makes us safer. I’ll wait…..
October 19th, 2006 at 3:17 PM
And why are these clowns still out there making video tapes and plotting our destruction? Who’s been in charge for the last six years? This ad makes a compelling case for voting for Democrats.
October 19th, 2006 at 3:24 PM
JonM-
How is it surrendering if we have already dismantled their military, jailed their leader, held free elections and trained 300,000 of their people to defend themselves?
I hope republicans run ads saying all of this stuff and then pointing out how they need to stay the course, even if it means killing more of our children in the effort to appear strong.
October 19th, 2006 at 3:50 PM
Great ad in a day when you can’t tell the difference between the quotes from Democrat leaders and quotes from terrorist leaders.
BTW Roving, if Clinton did his job and Saddam obayed, there wouldn’t be dead children but dead-beat democrats such as yourself always blame America first.
Why don’t you get the hell out of this country and go to a place where your views are more fitting, how about Venezuala??
October 19th, 2006 at 3:50 PM
Is the Republican party being bankrolled by the manufacturer of Depends??
October 19th, 2006 at 3:54 PM
This off the presses.
MDE is a target of a DU get out the lies campaign.
Half of these people who claim to be outraged and claimed to have voted for Bush are liars.
Then again Democrats have a birth defect that causes them to lie and then blame the other person for exposing the lie.
October 19th, 2006 at 4:16 PM
The GOP proves it’s desperation by quoting mass murderers like OBL & Al-Zawahiri in their effort to return a GOP Congress.
October 19th, 2006 at 4:17 PM
George Bush said he wanted OBL “dead or alive” back on 9/17/01. Just where is OBL? Why does he remain at large five years after he murdered 3,000 people?
October 19th, 2006 at 4:23 PM
How the ad should read: http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/7277/ 2006230726694091231_rs.jpg
October 19th, 2006 at 4:23 PM
October 19th, 2006 at 4:25 PM
for crying out loud! Here is the real link.. allyoucanupload.com messed it up last time:
http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/5499/2000709124770574711_rs.jpg
October 19th, 2006 at 4:27 PM
yes, Iraq is NOW the forefront in the war on terror… because WE invaded the country.
can you wingnuts at least admit that?
October 19th, 2006 at 4:32 PM
THIS is an outrageous ad! The GOP has totally lost what little sense they had left. No wonder Bush’s approval rating continues to sink. YES let’s all vote on Nov 7th…lets vote these chicken littles right out of office!!!!
October 19th, 2006 at 5:09 PM
Bush has flip flopped on OBL. At first, Bush said he wanted OBL “dead or alive” shortly after 9/11/01. Subsequently, on 3/13/02, Bush said “I truly am not that concerned about him.†Now, just three weeks before election day, OBL is operating as a GOP spokesman in this pathetic RNC ad. Come on Repubs, make up your minds about this mass murderer who hasn’t been brought to justice!
October 19th, 2006 at 5:09 PM
Sweet!
October 19th, 2006 at 5:10 PM
Here is your problem JonM, you think just because somebody takes exception to a republician action they have to be 100% democrat! I know who did the ad in ’64, I was simply making a comparison.
The point I was making with Iraq is that we did what we did and still those who attacked us are still acting as business as usual, based on what this ad shows. This could be seen as negative because it begs to ask, why are they still free to do these things five years later?
October 19th, 2006 at 5:49 PM
Wow! Someone needs to catch those terrorists.
Since Bush is either unable or unwilling to do so, I suggest we give the Dems a shot at it.
October 19th, 2006 at 6:01 PM
You know what’s even more scary? Having to walk to the door of a mother of a killed U.S. soldier in Iraq. This month marks the third worst month of U.S. deaths.
Terrorism didn’t come from Iraq and the Republicans sold us a bill of goods that were bad.
The President and his people have said we won’t leave Iraq without a “win” and said it is this generation’s Vietnam. Ummm, we left Vietnam without a win and what’s a “win.” No definition of victory and poor planning.
That’s the ad I would cut if I were the Democratic Party.
October 19th, 2006 at 6:11 PM
Call the FBI–somebody has hacked into MDE and placed a Democratic Party ad up here? It’s a terrific reminder for voters of the Question of the Day: “Where’s Osama?” Or maybe “Osama who?” Even our good ally Pakistan says Osama’s trail went cold because Bush tired of the hunt and moved on to invade Iraq.
Clinton tried to take Osama out. BushCo ignored Osama when he took office. Condi used the Clinton report on Al Qaeda to prop up her couch. Bush, Condi, Rummy and Cheney had their sights set on Iraq instead. Osama attacked the U.S. on Bush’s watch–not Clinton’s.
October 19th, 2006 at 6:23 PM
Shit this is scary. I will definitely vote for the Democrats now. How much more dangerous the world has gotten with Bush in charge!
October 19th, 2006 at 6:24 PM
I’m lovin that they hate the ad. Do some fact checks on it and see what grade it gets? I give it an A . It would have been an A plus if they would have splashed Ellison’s picture in it!
October 19th, 2006 at 6:27 PM
Now, if the GOP would only put out an ad with various hate comments spoken by Dean, Kerry , Pelosi, Teddy, and the rest of their supporters.
That’s all they need to do , just show the enemy within.
October 19th, 2006 at 6:44 PM
23:
>How do you negotiate with “millions,†anyway? How do you
>negotiate with people whose starting point is your death?
Well, go tell Bush that he’s totally wrong in his Iraq policy. Because, you know, he supports the government of Iraq, which is, you know, all muslim. Because he keeps on talking about the democracy-loving people of Iraq, and they are almost all muslim. Go impeach Bush for his for his relentless support for terrorists.
p.s. Are you really that brainwashed? Do you believe _all_ muslim are evil? There’s a billion of them around, if this were indeed true, they could smash all the western civilization in a week.
October 19th, 2006 at 7:20 PM
#1 judge on how effective an ad is….how angry the “markers and tagboard for peace” crowd gets over it.
October 19th, 2006 at 7:44 PM
Yes indeed Andrew,
The Peace Train is derailing.
October 19th, 2006 at 8:17 PM
Wow. I wish I could give up even MORE of my freedom to be safe from this! I’ll accept anything to feel not scared.
Must…Feel…Safer..Somehow…
Would England take us back? Seems like Americans were braver then, or something. This just isn’t working out here.
October 19th, 2006 at 8:17 PM
Zarqawi wasn’t accidentally killed, he was targeted and hit by a pinpoint strike. All you “terrorism experts” trying to say that there is no way to win in Iraq need to get off your couches and do a tour there, and see if it changes your perspective a little. I learned during my year in Iraq that most of the people are ecstatic to be liberated, but have a lot of pent up hatred for the perceived oppresors, or are pissed off that their days on the gravy train are over now that they are a minority without power. That creates a difficult security situation, to say the least. I have to ask all of you though, how do you respond to the inconvenient fact that military retention numbers are above goal and most Iraq war veterans support the war and believe it to be worthwhile? Iraq is no picnic, I personally survived a PIED, an SVBIED, 2 VBIED’s, and over 100 IDF attacks, consisting primarily of 107′s mixed with the occasional 122 and a few 60′s. Oh, and a few 57′s, but they hardly count, just little concrete chippers. I stand firm in my belief that we must be there, and did the right thing. If you don’t know what those acronyms stand for, you have no business commenting on how winnable the war is.
October 19th, 2006 at 8:21 PM
Annie, for someone with such sweet name, you show such a vile hatred for certain people. I honestly feel sorry for you and pray that you can find some help to deal with your issues.
October 19th, 2006 at 8:30 PM
The ad is outrageous? No, just another lame attempt to scare Americans into voting Republican.
If you think about it, thing have gotten a lot worse under the Republicans. And they’ve had years in charge of Congress. Look at all the resistance they put up to Clinton’s anti-terrorism initiatives.
Clinton wanted taggants in explosives, for example, and Republicans spun that into making hand-loaders into felons and voted against it. Look it up. Anything to deny a good idea, if it came from a Democrat.
I’m an American first, and DFL second. And my America is under attack from within. My precious Constitution is under attack from people who believe in strong authoritarian government. I deeply resent their anti-American actions.
Our foriegn policy took a deep turn for the worse when George Bush was selected in 2000. America can not afford to leave its head in the sand and pursue a military-only, we’re-in-charge foreign policy. We have pursued this course for six years, and the world is much the worse for it.
I look forward with a glad heart to the turnover in Congress in a few weeks. We need to get America back on course again. Its long past time for a change.
October 19th, 2006 at 8:40 PM
Now I’ve been happy lately, thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be, something good has begun
Oh I’ve been smiling lately, dreaming about the world as one
And I believe it could be, some day it’s going to come
Cause out on the edge of darkness, there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country, come take me home again
Now I’ve been smiling lately, thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be, something good has begun
Oh peace train sounding louder
Glide on the peace train
Come on now peace train
Yes, peace train holy roller
Everyone jump upon the peace train
Come on now peace train
Get your bags together, go bring your good friends too
Cause it’s getting nearer, it soon will be with you
Now come and join the living, it’s not so far from you
And it’s getting nearer, soon it will all be true
Now I’ve been crying lately, thinking about the world as it is
Why must we go on hating, why can’t we live in bliss
Cause out on the edge of darkness, there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country, come take me home again
October 19th, 2006 at 8:40 PM
Say Michael, I for one will miss you.
October 19th, 2006 at 8:53 PM
You’ll miss me? why?
October 19th, 2006 at 8:54 PM
Annie/Andrew:
Just a quick note.
Political ads are usually geared to “your voters” and the undecideds. It’s usually preferrable that they NOT anger the other side, since that might increase their turnout.
With an ad like this, the intent is to remind the GOP zombies that they need to vote for the party(GOP) that helps al Qaeda grow and to scare any undecideds/independents into voting for the party that allowed OBL to go free, stopped looking for him, and finally disbanded the CIA unit that was trying to track him down.
Check out the polls, I think people are finally waking up. I don’t think the GOP should really remind everyone that OBL is still alive; since W did vow to get him “dead or alive”. But maybe I’m overestimating the intelligence of the GOP supporters.
October 19th, 2006 at 9:06 PM
Patrick:
I thank you for your service to the country.
However, yours is not the only voice that is describing what is happening in Iraq, and many of the other voices tell a very different story. Are all of the retired generals lying to the American people when they testified to the current situation in Iraq? How about the Baker commission?
According to you, the Iraqi people are angry at everything and everyone EXCEPT for the US troops. According to several polls, and the voice of the elected government (such as it is), they want us out of the country. The problems that remain in Iraq today cannot be solved by the US military. The military acheived all of the military goals assigned to them – they defeated the Iraqi army (such as it was) and they removed Saddam from power. The remaining goals are political goals. Only the Iraqi people can solve them. Its time they were given the chance.
Contrary to what the GOP claims, we cannot impose democracy on the Iraqi people, they have to want it.
October 19th, 2006 at 9:07 PM
Ah yes, Alex. Admittedly a beautiful song, Peace Train, written by a man who believes that the fatwah demanding the death of Salman Rushdie for blasphemy is valid.
October 19th, 2006 at 9:59 PM
Jester, some retired generals are not “All” the retired generals, and I don’t bear any illusions that the terrorists firing all those rockets at me loved US Troops. Yes the Iraqis would love it if we would leave, the way we would all love it if SWAT teams weren’t a neccesity, but most recognize that the situation as it is requires our presence. I remain in regular contact with several Iraqi’s, interpreters I worked with, and on this they still agree. I hope that very soon the ISF are up to the task of maintaining internal order and US troops can be left to concentrate on (A) maintaining an advisory role in training ISF, and (B) concentrating on dealing with the foriegn terrorists still active in Iraq. Don’t try and tell me that they aren’t there, or that we created a breeding ground for them, because I have read the pre-war Iraqi documents to the contrary. Seen them with my own eyes. And the SVBIED was a Belgian woman married to a Morrocan. The Morrocan got whacked the next morning by an SF team. When they got him, he was wearing a vest and was on his way to the gate I worked at to detonate himself among a bunch of Iraqi civillians and US troops. It’s not just Shia -v- Sunni. I also witnessed 3 elections while I was there, 3 succesful elections, so don’t try and tell me they don’t want democracy. A fair percentage of American’s don’t go to the polls if it’s raining, and they walked to the polls under the threat of beheading. Those are people who deserve a shot at democracy, and I am proud to have helped give it to them. You keep spouting your happy little platitudes, I’ll keep going off to fight wars so that millions of others have the same rights you don’t think they deserve. Go to sleep now, little sheep. I’ll keep the wolf from the door.
October 19th, 2006 at 10:11 PM
I kinda get a kick out of how the “we have nothing to fear” democrats are pissed about this ad, which very clearly articulates what we have to be afraid of…
For all their comforting talk, and soothing reassurances that there is no evil, the Democrats have no plan for dealing with reality.
I don’t know that it’ll work. But I hope it wakes folks up to the reality that, a vote for Democrats is a vote to weaken our national defenses.
October 19th, 2006 at 11:16 PM
Patrick,
Thank you for your service. God Bless You and all our brave military men and women!!
October 19th, 2006 at 11:42 PM
Patrick: // Don’t try and tell me that they aren’t there, or that we created a breeding ground for them, because I have read the pre-war Iraqi documents to the contrary. Seen them with my own eyes. //
Seen what with your own eyes? Something that the 9-11 Commission and the rest of the intelligence agencies of the US Government didn’t see?
Perhaps a little more detail about this alleged evidence would be worth hearing. Like what it said, more or less, where it came from, who presented it, and how many other similar documents you saw.
Pardon me if I don’t jump all on your bandwagon, but your claim is pretty far out there. Written proof that Saddam was in bed with terrorists? Not fricking likely.
October 19th, 2006 at 11:46 PM
To me this just demonstrates how the world is even more dangerous than it was 6 years ago, and how many ways the Republicans have failed in foreign policy.
October 19th, 2006 at 11:50 PM
The problem with government is that its ran by politicians.
You should all be proud in Minnesota that you have a true leader in Patty Wetterling to vote for. Someone that is ready to keep our kids safe.
October 20th, 2006 at 12:31 AM
Patrick: // I have to ask all of you though, how do you respond to the inconvenient fact that military retention numbers are above goal and most Iraq war veterans support the war and believe it to be worthwhile? //
Care to comment on the use of stop-loss orders, repeated tours for National Guardsmen, recruiting on high school grounds, and moral waivers?
// Law enforcement officials report that the military is now “allowing more applicants with gang tattoos,” the Chicago Sun-Times reports, “because they are under the gun to keep enlistment up.” They also note that “gang activity maybe rising among soldiers.” The paper was provided with “photos of military buildings and equipment in Iraq that were vandalized with graffiti of gangs based in Chicago, Los Angeles and other cities.”
Another type of gang member has also begun to proliferate within the military, evidently thanks to lowered recruitment standards and an increasing tendency of recruiters to look the other way. In July, a study by the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks racist and right-wing militia groups, found that because of pressing manpower concerns, “large numbers of neo-Nazis and skinhead extremists” are now serving in the military. “Recruiters are knowingly allowing neo-Nazis and white supremacists to join the armed forces, and commanders don’t remove them from the military even after we positively identify them as extremists or gang members,” said Scott Barfield, a Defense Department investigator quoted in the report.
The New York Times noted that the neo-Nazi magazine Resistance is actually recruiting for the U.S. military, urging “skinheads to join the Army and insist on being assigned to light infantry units.” As the magazine explained, “The coming race war and the ethnic cleansing to follow will be very much an infantryman’s war. … It will be house-to-house … until your town or city is cleared and the alien races are driven into the countryside where they can be hunted down and ‘cleansed.’ ”
Apparently, the recruiting push has worked. Barfield reported that he and other investigators have identified a network of neo-Nazi active-duty Army and Marine personnel spread across five military installations in five states. “They’re communicating with each other about weapons, about recruiting, about keeping their identities secret, about organizing within the military,” he said.
Little wonder that Aryan Nation graffiti is now apparently competing for space with American inner-city gang graffiti in Iraq. //
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/10/01/ING42LCIGK1.DTL
October 20th, 2006 at 1:11 AM
Ah, yes, 650,000 dead. So who do you think killed them? Certainly not us, there can’t possibly be that many Al Qaeda even worldwide. And if we killed them, they weren’t civilians, but lefties don’t want to make that distinction. Democrats can rave all they want, but their basic position on Iraq always comes back to this: “Quick, let’s withdraw before we manage to actually win!”
October 20th, 2006 at 6:43 AM
Brian, 2 words: Harmony documents
A database of captured documnts, millions of them, being translated in Qatar. The translation is stilla work in progress, when I was in country about 750,000 documents consisting of about 4 million pages had been scanned, tranlated, and archived. Interesting stuff, and many have since been declassified.
Recruiters have been going to high schools since pretty much the dawn of time, I know when I initially enlisted in 1983 recruiters were going to high schools. Gangs were a problem on my first tour to Bosnia in 96, a Cali NG unit in Tuzla had a bunch of problems then, and there were some gang problems back in the 80′s, too. Same goes for Aryan nation activity, I know a guy got busted at Ft. Bragg in the mid 80′s for selling hardware to white supremacist groups. The military is a microcosm, good, bad and ugly, of the population.
Gotta get to work, More later.
October 20th, 2006 at 8:11 AM
Patrick, you rock. Thanks for all you’ve done. Please stick around.
And those of you that think Saddam had no ties to terror need to pull your heads out, or at least do a Google on Salman Pak.
The Harmony documents have also shown this beyond a resonable doubt. `Reasonable’ not being a word our anti-war friends are familiar with.
October 20th, 2006 at 8:33 AM
Patrick, “Peace Train” was requested by Annie Rice above, and I thought that if it could bring her a moment’s peace posting it was worthwhile.
Going to be interesting to see if the Secret Service coughs up the records showing visitors to Cheney’s office and home, as ordered by a Federal judge.
Cheney will need a relaxing song, too. Any ideas? “It’s Money That I Love” by Randy Neuman perhaps?
October 20th, 2006 at 8:38 AM
Boy, just saw this ad on CNN… it really has the stench of desperation!
October 20th, 2006 at 8:45 AM
Hey cool! The Democrats already have a counter ad that ROCKS! Simply uses the President’s own words. Michael, why not provide a link to the response? Or are you afraid it cuts the legs off this one?
October 20th, 2006 at 8:56 AM
Going to be interesting to see if the Secret Service coughs up the records showing visitors to Cheney’s office and home, as ordered by a Federal judge.
What’s good for the goose…
I call for an immediate release of all visitor records for Bill Clinton, Al Gore and every Democratic Senator and Congressman – home and office.
October 20th, 2006 at 8:57 AM
The WaPo carrying water for the Dems again. Alex, wanna make a bet as to the fallout from that?
Nil and nada. Remember Plame and Fitzmas? That must be a very bad memory for you. Did you cry?
October 20th, 2006 at 9:03 AM
JohnM in MN–
small point: LBJ’s “Daisy” ad was not done with Jim Lehrer.
I think you are confusing one texan journalist with another, much more partisan one named Bill Moyers.
Before working for PBS and creating the MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour, Jim Lehrer served in the Marine Corps and was a newspaper man in Dallas.
Bill Moyers had a long career working for LBJ, starting with his service as an Intern for then Senator Johnson in 1954. He later became LBJ’s press secretary.
-Ben in St. Paul
October 20th, 2006 at 9:16 AM
Traitor Democratic Congresswoman
Here’s another reason Democrats can’t be trusted running our country.
October 20th, 2006 at 9:18 AM
JonM — how do your tonsils look from the inside, bitch? Because that’s how far up your own ass you’ve lodged your head. You’re so steeped in your twisted ideology that the evidence you tell people to go find contradicts you. Salman Pak, huh? No doubt you’re talking about the claims of Sabah Khodada, the captain in the Iraqi army from 1982 to 1992. What do you get if you Google “Salman Pak”? You get this:
“More than two years after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, there has been no verification of Khodada’s account of the activities at Salman Pak. In fact, U.S. officials have now concluded that Salman Pak was most likely used to train Iraqi counter-terrorism units in anti-hijacking techniques.
It should also be noted that he and other defectors interviewed for this report were brought to US media’s attention by the Iraqi National Congress (INC), a dissident organization that was working to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Since the original interview, Khodada has not publicly addressed questions that have been raised about his account of activities at Salman Pak.”
Well done, ya mindless robot freak.
October 20th, 2006 at 9:22 AM
I hope this ad gets heavy rotation in Minnesota. You see, even many of the republicans in this state are very intelligent, and we all recognize that OBL has yet to be caught.
But unlike the republicans who apparently think this ad will propel people to stay the course, I think people will see this as proof of five years of incompetence and failure. If our president and this congress can not use the military to find one person on this planet in five years, I think a lot of people will see that it is time to try a new tact.
And that new tact won’t be more republicans.
You tried. You failed. Now it is our turn.
October 20th, 2006 at 9:26 AM
Anybody who thinks this is legitimate political discourse needs to go back and finally finish 3rd grade.
October 20th, 2006 at 10:02 AM
Sparkman, you must really enjoy the anonominity of the Internet. Because I have a feeling you wouldn’t be using words like `bitch’ and `robot freak’ to my face. Just a hunch.
Oh, and Salman Pak? Here’s something I’m sure you’ve never seen, because they don’t link to things like this on Kos or DU, and even when they do link none of you lemmings follow them.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp?pg=1
Since you won’t follow the link, I’ll post the relevant bit:
THE FORMER IRAQI REGIME OF Saddam Hussein trained thousands of radical Islamic terrorists from the region at camps in Iraq over the four years immediately preceding the U.S. invasion, according to documents and photographs recovered by the U.S. military in postwar Iraq. The existence and character of these documents has been confirmed to THE WEEKLY STANDARD by eleven U.S. government officials.
The secret training took place primarily at three camps–in Samarra, Ramadi, and Salman Pak–and was directed by elite Iraqi military units. Interviews by U.S. government interrogators with Iraqi regime officials and military leaders corroborate the documentary evidence. Many of the fighters were drawn from terrorist groups in northern Africa with close ties to al Qaeda, chief among them Algeria’s GSPC and the Sudanese Islamic Army. Some 2,000 terrorists were trained at these Iraqi camps each year from 1999 to 2002, putting the total number at or above 8,000. Intelligence officials believe that some of these terrorists returned to Iraq and are responsible for attacks against Americans and Iraqis. According to three officials with knowledge of the intelligence on Iraqi training camps, White House and National Security Council officials were briefed on these findings in May 2005; senior Defense Department officials subsequently received the same briefing.
Would you like a link to the original translated Iraqi document, or have you had enough?
Back to DU with you, foul-mouthed troll.
October 20th, 2006 at 10:12 AM
no wonder the democrats hate the ad. They have opposed any bill that goes after terrorists.
So we have the left-wing extremists crying over the fact they have been weak on national security. Someone said this website is being spammed by the extremists and it appears they are really desperate for people to forget that 9/11 was planned under Clinton’s watch and Clainton refused to go after Bin Laden even when he was offered up on a silver platter for Clinton.
Shame on you Democrats!!
October 20th, 2006 at 10:42 AM
Me, hard core conservative. Hate the add. It rings of mindless scare tactics.
Too many bone head comments on this thread. 600K+ dead in Iraq disproved. Foley is over. Don’t bring it up unless you include Studds, Franks and Clinton. Otherwise you are a partisan hypocrite. (and fits this subject how?) All is not perfect in Iraq so let’s admit it and move the discussion on from there. Killing always ramps up during Ramadan, not a political statement about our election. On and on and on.
The common theme of the left on this thread is that the world is more dangerous since Bush took office. N. Korea going nuke under Bush – only if you think that a third-world stink hole made a nuke in 5 years. Or Muslim Extremists only started hating 5 years ago. Or 9/11 was planed and executed in seven months. Too much selective reasoning going on here by both sides. Come on people!
Like everything else most all of this has been festering for decades. Eight years of Clinton Don’t-Ask-Don’t-Tell foreign policy did nothing more than keep us all ignorant and happy while the horrors of the world marched unchallenged. We were attached several times under Clinton but it was poo-pooed and swept under the rug. To be fair I don’t think Bush is doing a great job of it. Obviously huge mistakes have been made and invading Iraq, even though I support it, is a fair debate but I do believe that going back to the fetal-ball foreign policy of the left is pure suicide. That’s the point of the add no matter who you blame for getting us here.
I think the GOP would do better to have an add that used direct quotes from terrorists and DNC leaders side by side and see how they are both saying the same things. Show the facts. Those who want us all dead use DNC talking points. Now that’s powerful.
October 20th, 2006 at 10:46 AM
I believe many of these lefty posters have been or soon will be diagnosed with various mental pathologys, chief among them, sociopathic tendancies.
October 20th, 2006 at 11:05 AM
JonM — name the time and place; only one of us will walk away, and it won’t be you.
There, that should satisfy your need for moronic chest-thumping. Didn’t mommy hug you enough?
So make another comment to feel better about yourself, go ahead.
Dork.
October 20th, 2006 at 11:20 AM
Sparkman — your lack of a substantive response was completely predictable.
Any more names you’d like to call? And I never threatened you, I merely pointed out that it’s easy to call names anonymously. Your implication that it was anything more is quite likely evidence of paranoia.
Best of luck with all that.
October 20th, 2006 at 11:36 AM
Ouch!! You can always tell when we get under the skin of liberals.
Most understand history has shown the democRat party is and has always been very weak on defense of this country.
Obviously the liberal defenders here know this and need to try and twist everything they can as this is the type of thing that costs them elections.
When things are going well, no threat to the county and the economy is great we can afford a democRat president once in a while. However it usually is not long before the country wakes up and remembers why you do not put a democRat in charge of the oval office. Carter was a total joke and ruined the economy for years after we booted him out. Clinton was also a joke and while private business handed him one of the best economy runs in history he managed to spend that away too. Not to mention how Clinton cut the hell out of the military! Handed off a falling economy and a severely damaged intelligence program that eventually gave us 9/11. The next election cycle for President will not go to a democRat either as the country is not yet ready for another joker. Maybe in a few election cycles we can afford to put another one in, but we would be foolish to place a democRat in the oval office anytime soon. Then again it should not be more than a few years before average Joe democrat kicks out the liberal base it has now and goes back to a party that loves and appreciates the USA. Ted Kennedy and company will not live forever. Hey I think I heard he got drunk and killed someone driving and left the scene and hid. I am sure the democrats did the right thing and fired him right?? Oh wait, they are not the party that actually goes after their own when they do wrong.
Also Sparkman, if you are feeling like a bit of a tough guy, please drop me a line, I love to make tough guys cry.
Roving by chance are you heading down to the airpost today to tell the service men and women how you felt they got their asses handed to them?
You claim you are from a military family yet what you write clearly tells me you know little of the military or what they go through. I sir can no longer think of you as anything but a total spoiled punk. I would guess you are a product of what happens when a father leaves the family and Mom is stuck trying to work and teach you life lessons. Kind of sad really.
October 20th, 2006 at 12:19 PM
J. Ewing,
Still waiting on that diagram. I’ll make it easier. You can use your own estimate of how many Iraqis Who Did Not Attack Us we have killed. Now, make your diagram showing us how that has made us safer. I’m sure that by typing away in your basement you’ll come up with something that completely disproves the recent study by 16 intelligence agencies that concluded that your plan actually makes us less safe.
To all who disavow the 650,000 estimate, I have a couple of questions. How many innocent people do you think we have killed, how did you arrive at that number, and how many innocent deaths are you willing to tolerate to achieve the results we have?
October 20th, 2006 at 12:25 PM
I would highly recommend visiting THE GUN STORE
http://www.thegunstorelasvegas.com/
Sometimes, you can’t rely on others to protect your family.
October 20th, 2006 at 12:47 PM
I like ManGenius
October 20th, 2006 at 1:11 PM
Big Kahuna,
“Most understand history has shown the democRat party is and has always been very weak on defense of this country.”
WW I president: Wilson (D)
WW II presidents: Roosevelt/Truman (D)
Win/loss record 2-0
Presidents in office at the end of the Korean and Vietnam Wars: Eisenhower (R) Nixon (R)
Record 0-1-1
I know, the presidents at the start of the last 2 were (D). But if starting a misguided war makes one soft on defense then we must have the Pillsbury doughboy in charge now.
Mahalo
October 20th, 2006 at 1:11 PM
What was said in the ad that was fictional? Nothing. Those are all legitimate quotes from those muslim nut jobs. There are probably others that could have been used, but they most likely weren’t suitable for TV.
These people want you dead. Like it or not you’re on their list. No matter if you are a saint or a jerk…the simple fact that you’re an American puts a big target on your forehead for those lunatics.
I’m sure when people were warning Europe about Hitler in the late 30′s they were shouted down as fear-mongers, too.
See you in hell, appeasers.
October 20th, 2006 at 1:21 PM
Mr. bg.
Wilson, Rosevelt & Truman would all be ashamed of what has become of the democRat party!!
They would have never allowed hippie freaks such as Wellstone, Dayton, Wilde, Rowley, Wetterling and such into their party and you know that is fact!!
October 20th, 2006 at 1:37 PM
Fact:
WW I president: Wilson (D)
WW II presidents: Roosevelt/Truman (D)
Win/loss record 2-0
Presidents in office at the end of the Korean and Vietnam Wars: Eisenhower (R) Nixon (R)
Record 0-1-1
Opinion:
Wilson, Rosevelt & Truman would all be ashamed of what has become of the democRat party!!
They would have never allowed hippie freaks such as Wellstone, Dayton, Wilde, Rowley, Wetterling and such into their party and you know that is fact!!
Learn the difference and maybe someday you’ll win an argument.
October 20th, 2006 at 1:42 PM
The Republican party has become a tool for fascism. And I don’t mean like Hitler. Of course they don’t want to kill millions of people… but they are becoming true fascists: Extreme-Authoritarians that want to rule and regulate your life and keep you in their ranks by scaring the hell out of you everytime an election comes around.
I am voting democratic because I believe in America. Cut and run? NO! Stay the course? HELL NO!
In my opinion, there is nobody more un-American and dangerous to our own country and what we stand for than modern day neo-conservative Republicans.
Barry Goldwater, Herbert Hoover… they’d be ashamed of you all.
October 20th, 2006 at 2:52 PM
Bryan, you’re on to us, we’re all fascists. All of us neo-convicts.
Per Cheny’s instructions, I’ve dispatched the black helicopters, I suggest you put your affairs in order.
October 20th, 2006 at 2:55 PM
“Extreme-Authoritarians that want to rule and regulate your life and keep you in their ranks by scaring the hell out of you everytime an election comes around.”
Sounds a bit like the Global Warming crowd, dunnit?
October 20th, 2006 at 3:17 PM
bg, do you even know if you are on foot or horseback??
Again, the dims are upset because they truly do understand most Americans see the dims as weak on defense and 99% of the military votes Republican because they understand this more than anyone.
I have yet to meet a democRat who wants to increase the budget for the military. I do not mean benefits or pay, I mean spending money on new defense systems and equipment. No, instead every last one wants to take that money away and spend it on special interests pet projects and social experiments.
DemocRats have a long way to go before they will change Americans minds about that.
October 20th, 2006 at 3:20 PM
Scare them to death and claim their votes. Both partys have been guilty of this one. Sure this ad will have an effect on people, the question is in what way? Will those who are afraid (and with good reason) of those who want to harm us see this ad and be afraid that it is just a mater of time before the next attack. Or will they see this and ask the question as to why have we not captured any of these guys yet? I suspect that two years ago this ad would certainly result in the first scenero, but I have to wonder about now. I think even a few of those who have their secret stash of supplies are asking the question in the second scenero.
Ads like this make me wonder, do we elect the best person or the one that we are convinced is the least scary?
October 20th, 2006 at 3:51 PM
Kahuna,
“Again, the dims are upset because… ”
Fact:
Actually, I’m upset because your team has killed thousands of people, including almost 3,000 Americans, and spent hundreds of billions of dollars and the result is Iraq today. You don’t get to tell my why Im upset.
Opinion:
But I’m sure it’s easier for you to argue against what you mistakenly think I believe.
Opinion:
“99% of the military votes Republican”
I’m sure in your head you are winning this argument.
BTW, most of the Hawaiians I know don’t go for the Big Kahuna thing. Kahunas were holy men. Not that insulting an entire ethnic group would bother anyone on your team.
October 20th, 2006 at 4:02 PM
Ads like this make me wonder, do we elect the best person or the one that we are convinced is the least scary? – Titus
Considering the dims will try to put Hillary in the office, wouldn’t the best person and least scary still be a Republican??
Titus, the answer would be yes to that one.
October 20th, 2006 at 5:19 PM
Kahunas were holy men – bg
bg, do you even have a clue of their language??
My guess would be NOT! you may want to look up the word and let me know if you still think “Kahuna” means holy man.
You truly are an idiot!
October 20th, 2006 at 5:40 PM
Ah Big Kahuna before you call somebody an idiot you also should look up the word.
“Originally, Kahuna was the Hawaiian title for a priest, expert, teacher, and/or adviser, and the term is still used in that context by native Hawaiians. (See ancient Hawai’i) A kahuna nui was a high priest.”
October 20th, 2006 at 6:22 PM
Titus, I did’nt know Dims. had respect for religion? Or do you just respect religions that have pagan roots and child sacrifice? Titus, Republicans or christians are NOT your enemy, Islamic-Fascists are your enemies. Now, instead of your Republican-fascist rants, why don’t you spend you time researching your real enemies?
October 20th, 2006 at 9:22 PM
It’s a pretty simple compare and contrast experiment, really.
Democrats = 1) Do nothing. 2) Weaken our military. 3) Bolix our intelligence capabilities. 4) Capitulate to terrorists’ demands. 5) Hope for peace.
Republicans = 1) Free our intelligence agencies to do their best work. 2) Reform our military, make it more agile and responsive. 3) Deploy that military to kick the hell out of any Islamic Radical who dares declare war on the U.S. 4) Strengthen law enforcement, and bring terrorists to justice. 5) After extracting as much useful information from them as possible.
Democrats this season are running on killing the patriot act, cutting our intelligence capabilities and weaking the military. This is based of the assumption that being nice to Islamic Radicals will make them go away, or worse, that there are no Islamic Radicals in the first place.
Returning to pre-9/11 tactics will not advance our cause.
October 20th, 2006 at 10:53 PM
FTW
October 21st, 2006 at 8:03 AM
You know Annie if you would spend some time reading some posts you would find that I have stated that I am a Christian. I worry for you because of the hostile tone that often found in your emails. As a Christian I am called to love my enemies and pray for my persecuters. Do I feel that we should defend ourselves from attacks? You bet! I would like to see OBL and his crew brought down and to justice, which is why I have such a problem with what is going on right now with our war on terriorism.
Again read my post to Big Kahuna, I was simply suggesting that before he calls someone an idiot he should find out why they made the statement.
You talk about respect, yet you show very little respect for anyone who would dare to think slightly different than you do. I don’t always like what Mr.Brodkorb posts, at least I respect that fact that he allows some sense of discussion from all viewpoints on this site. You have a problem with what people post, take it up with him.
October 21st, 2006 at 1:03 PM
Titus, these are posts not e-mails ( I don’t want an impression left that i’m e-mailing you)
I’m not hostile, just truthful and blunt.
All kinds of people say their christians; I find it very difficult to understand how a bible-beliving christian could ever be a democrat.Just check out the websites of the United Church of Christ or alot of those so-called christian churches. Sorry, they are humanistic.
If you don’t realize that the War in Iraq has EVERYTHING to do with fighting OBL and various other islamic-fascists, then you have no clue.If you want to learn more about this fact, i’ll give you plenty of factual sites that might be of assistance in your education.
Again, perhaps you might want to go post on all your democratic blogs that insult christians everyday and correct their thinking.
I have little respect for idiotic views. Not all opinions or “religions” deserve respect. I realize that the “common cause” humanists believe that all cultures and all religions are equal in value, but i’m not one of them. So, yes, I have little respect for the democratic platform and their culture of death.
I also don’t believe that i’ve ever said you or anyone else does not have a right to express their viewpoints. In turn, Titus, I have a right to express mine – which is I don’t respect alot of viewpoints expressed here. Comprez?
Why would I need to run to Mr. Brodkorb about anything? I believe your so used to mediation therapy that your idea of perfect communication is the dialectic and consensus. Sorry, I don’t do Hegel.
October 21st, 2006 at 1:42 PM
Titus, I for one hope you keep coming here and posting. Unlike some, there is hope for you.
October 21st, 2006 at 3:33 PM
Yes, welcome to all change-agents…..let’s all dialog to consensus and feel good about it!
October 21st, 2006 at 11:25 PM
Well JonM I will gladly keep posting, as I too think there is hope for all of us!
Annie, you obviously just want to be a power player on this site. Why would anyone think that you are privately emailing me? PLEASE READ WHAT I wrote! Where did I say email? I clearly stated POSTS!
Yes Annie you do come off as hostle to anyone who does not hold the exact views that you do. You dare sit and challenge that I am a Christian and hold Christian beliefs. Why? And then you believe that you can stand and decide what is Christian and what is not? Tell me, what is the right Christian belief?
I love clear discussions that bring in good debate and people with a variety of beliefs and thoughts. We certainly don’t all agree, but in the course of the discussion we do nothing to further it when we call names, disrespect others beliefs, and shout insults. You don’t tell people they can’t post but if they disagree with what you say, you will go out of your way to insult them. That my dear Annie is not dialog or debate.
October 22nd, 2006 at 2:58 PM
Excuse me? A power player on this site? I post here and have no delusions that whatever I say, no matter how compelling (lol) or truthful, will change the results of any election. I am one voice as are all of you. No, I don’t believe i’m a power player. I think the owner of this site , whom i’ve never met and would not recognize at a political event or walking down a street, serves the “Minnesota Community” by his research and features on his blog. I am totally aware of my humble role as a poster.
Sorry if in one of your posts , you did’nt say “emails to me” Perhaps I confused you with someone else who said that to me or some dim. slipped some drugs into my coffee yesterday. (just kidding)
In terms of christian beliefs – perhaps you might be willing to share if your a member of a particular church? I don’t decide what is christian or what is not, but God’s Word does so if you would like to share your testimony, I would love to hear it.
Again, i’m quite familiar with the dialectic and your last paragraph exposes your training or indoctrination. I’ve never shouted in this forum (in case you did’nt notice, there is no audio) I think it’s my right as a citizen of the USA to disrespect others beliefs as i’ve said before. Do you wish to make “respect for others beliefs” part of the 10 commandments or part of the constitution?
I don’t believe i’ve called anyone a name..whatever that means to you. If you would like to be a power player here, perhaps you could talk to the administrator and set up guidelines for definitions of dialog and debate you find reasonable so we all can reach consensus on it without offending anyone and respect the rights of the group over the individual. (change agent manuel p. 43)
Thank you for your critique and I hope you can accept mine in the same gracious manner in which i’ve accepted yours.
October 22nd, 2006 at 4:09 PM
Annie, couldn’t the arguement be made that our country was essentially founded on the premise that we respect others beliefs? Wasn’t one of the biggest problems that the Colonies didn’t like the rules established by a monarchy and thus a democracy was born that encouraged a variety of ideas as a new country was being formed?
Annie I think you believe that respect means acceptance, and I guess I don’t see it that way.
I won’t go into my testimony on this site but I will tell you that theological training has come from both Bethel and Luther Seminaries, ah yes Annie I am a Minister. My screen name Titus, comes from one of my favorite books of the Bible, The Book of Titus.
Blessings
October 22nd, 2006 at 5:17 PM
Titus, then what is your christian opinion of introducing children to homosexual life-styles in gov’t schools? On the Hatch post, you seemed to approve?
So your a minister…what church? Do you know the Reverand Jesse Jackson?
Again, the constitution does not dictate that individuals have to show respect to other individual opinions. I believe your confused.
Just because a variety of ideas exist does not mean they deserve respect by me . Have not you noticed the lack of respect for our President’s views ? Oh, I guess that’s fine with you as i’ve not noticed you correcting alot of lefty posts. Or is it that you simply don’t like conservatives not respecting lefty views?
If you need something to do, I can direct you to a few comments and you can tell these individuals that they are being disrespectful towards the Republicans in here. How about it?
BTW Titus, our country was formed because WE rejected the beliefs and practices of the English monarchy. If we were so broad-minded, we should have found some way to incorporate the King, high taxes and state mandated religion.
Sometimes, Titus, you have to make a choice.
FYI, i’m an independent baptist and it was the Maybury Baptists who did not want any mandated religions. Of course, they never thought that would mean christians did not have the right for free expression.
Titus, sometimes truth is blunt and often truth offends people. Get used to it.
And spare me the “how do you know truth”
If you want that discussion, i’ll give you a few sites that “dialog “on Biblical truth.
October 22nd, 2006 at 6:37 PM
Annie, my last post to you on this. In reference ot the Maybury Baptists, yes I know of this well. This is the discussion by Thomas Jefferson in which we got the words “Seperation of Church and State.”. Jefferson was arguing for the RIGHT that these Baptists had to practice their Christian belief by way of Baptist practices, which was in stark contrast to the Episcopal practices of many of that day. The concern that Jefferson had was that the principle belief practice (Episcopal) not be the only one that be allowed to occur in this new country.
Annie if insulting individual Christian beliefs are part of who you are, then I am sorry. My prayers are truly with you.
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:28 PM
Titus, You have a very simplistic understanding of this. The Danbury Baptists did not like the constitutional protection for the “free exercise of religion” because it suggested that the right was government-given (thus alienable) They preferred it be God-given (thus inalienable) Obviously because if it was the right of the gov’t to grant freedom, it could also take it away. They believed the government might someday attempt to regulate religious expression. (which it has). Jefferson agreed .
He had witnessed this unhealthy tendency of government to encroach upon the free exercise of expression. So along with other Founders the 1st Amendment had been enacted only to prevent the federal establishment of a national denomination.
Yes it involved the Episcopalians, Congregationalists or any other denomationion in that it would not allow them to establish a particular form of Christianity. He assured the Danbury Baptists that the gov’t would never interfer with the free exercise of religion.. There is no separation of Church and State Titus.
Jefferson , in his letter. said that” the legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” thus “building a wall of separation” between Church and State.
It was not until “activist judges” entered the scene that all the discussion and court cases involving free expression of religion was perverted into “separation of Church and State”
Earlier courts only identified actions – if advanced in the name of religion – the government did have resons to intrude. All kinda popular things today like “human sacrifice, parricide, polygamy, incest, infanticide, concubinage, advocation and promotion of immorality” But the gov’t was NEVER to interfere with traditional religious practices. There’s tons more on this and if your interested check out ORIGINAL INTENT by David Barton.
I have no idea what your individual christian beliefs might be. You state your a minister and yet won’t tell me the name of your church or fundamental beliefs. I would think , as a minister, you would want to share your religious affiliation.
I’m not sure your prayers are welcome since I have no clue who your God might be. Although from your posts, I think you fail to understand God’s Word as expressed in His inspired scriptures.
Yes, there’s no need to discuss this any further
as i’m not into group think .
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:00 AM
Thank-you for correcting the church name, I missed it last night. Danbury Baptist is correct. Yes I did purposely simplify but I think I shared the gist of the purpose. As I thought my previous post would be my last to you on this matter, I don’t want to argue with you on this. I want ot point out though what you said with regards to inalienable in your post. You are correct I believe in what you say here, but I worry that some Christians don’t understand this and actually want their Christianity to be the only one in our country. Let me give you an example. A local church preached to its members that they needed to pray for and rescue their family members from the Catholic church. The pastor of this church also supports much of what you say, but I wonder if he understands your point on inalienable right? As he publicaly states that our country needs to get back to it’s Christian beliefs, does he bring the Catholics along or are they not part of this restoration and thus lack inalienable rights? That is the worry when we think that true Christian expression has to be packaged a certain way.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:04 PM
Of course it means Catholics . I don’t believe any Founding Father said “only inalienable rights of Baptists.”
It was natural for the Catholic church to pray for specific family members from the Catholic church. This is the purpose of the local church.
I’m sure they pray for the safety and wellness of all people too.
Again, Titus, I don’t know how you ever became a minister when your so suspicious of other christians but don’t question the affects of teaching the things they do to little kids these days?
More people in history have died from communistic or secular wars than any so called “christiana wars”
That’s a fact.
Again, i’m a baptist because doctrinally I believe their approach to biblical exegesis, etc. is accurate and can be defended. The anti-baptists were persecuted by the Catholics in the Crusades – it was’nt only Muslums. The Danbury Baptists did not want to suffer persecution here nor did they want to persecute. If you research the baptists or the Danbury Baptists you will discover that one reason they had their conversation with Jefferson was because other “states” were promoting a specific christian denomination. So this was also offered to the Baptists and they rejected this concept but wanted all people to have inalienable rights to believe in any christian sect or not to believe at all. They did not enjoy persecution nor did they want to persecute. Thus, they did not want a state or a country to give the rights of “free worship” but that this came from God and again man could not give it or take it away. Thus the term inalienable. Of course, we see today, more and more of Judges deciding what is inalienable and what is not.
Titus, i’m sorry if my style is a tad curt and you do have an amazing ability to tolerate some of my comments in this discussion. I give you alot of credit in that department.