As proof, I cite this message board, populated as it is by political junkies. Earlier in this thread it became apparent that no one seemed to know where stocks came from. It’s as if the prevailing opinion around here was that they were delivered to the floor of the New York Stock Exchange by the financial equivalent of the tooth fairy.

Where the market is global, as it is for oil, the laws of supply and demand operate quite independently of political boundaries.

So you don’t think opening another oil field or two doesn’t matter. Lets see the price of oil is $133. A million barrells more per day will according to Senator Schummer cause a reduction of like sixty cents per gallon of gasoline if done by Saudi Arbia. So even Senator Schummer argues that more production will make a big price difference.

The problem Schummer saids a foreign country’s oil company in another country can do the production instead of a US company on US soil.

You think it makes no difference where that extra oil is produced. Learn supply and demand. It makes a difference.

Walter Hanson
Minneapolis, MN

I am sure they are trying, and that’s just fine. It’s perfectly proper for oil companies to defend themselves from unfair public attacks and fair ones too.

“We’re still at the point where you think it’s okay for the Democrats to attack the oil companies.”

Sure it’s okay. The issues involved are certainly debatable and just as it is proper for Democrats to criticize oil companies, just as the oil companies have every right to defend themselves from criticism.

You know it’s a big world out there, and I really don’t think opening another oil field or two will really have that much impact on supply or prices.

The Republicans didn’t controll Congress during all of that time. The Democrats controlled the US Senate between 2001-2003. Since then drilling for oil in ANWAR has technically been fillbustered in the Senate. You have said it was President Bush’s fault when the blame can be laid at Congress. Part of the problems people have with some Republicans in the House and Senate (such as Norm Coleman unfortunately) that have tried to show green credentials and do silly things such as not supporting drilling for ANWAR. One reason why I’m trying to make noise about this is Norm is willing to switch to wanting to support drilling for oil in ANWAR it will get him votes not cost him votes.

Cheney didn’t sneeze at conversation. If you looked at the news coverage of Cheney’s task force one reporter went and got copies of proposals which business groups and environmentalists groups put in. Business groups in the story scored like three out of their fifteen proposals. One environmentalist group leader thought it was joke that they were asked for input and told the Cheney task force to look at their website position. That website had eight of their fifteen positions adopted.

Man the oil companies give me the impression that if they can drill today they will drill today. If you listened to those executives during those hearings it please let us drill!

Hiram just how stupid are you trying to pretend to be with the line, “And I an not sure Democrats are blaming the oil companies for high energy prices so much as they are criticing them for excess profits” Hello! They are accussing them of making the prices high to get the excess profits that they are complaining they are getting their profits based on the volume more than anything since they have a profit margin of 9% compared with 17% for Banks) about. And on top of it since they claim they are making excess profits they want to use that as an excuse to tax them even higher rates though
that will paid by us!

One of the fiduciary duties is to protect your company from unfair public attacks which you seem to think that they aren’t trying to do.

We’re still at the point where you think it’s okay for the Democrats to attack the oil companies.

Get real! It’s because of the Democrats and their policies of not drilling for oil in places like ANWAR that is causing the mess we have today. What do you want us to pay for gasoline? Eight dollars? Eighty dollars? Eight hundred dollars?

Walter Hanson
Minneapolis, MN

Personally, I have never been convinced that the oil companies themselves were that enthusiastic about drilling in ANWR. The oil is remote and expensive to get, and I don’t think oil companies thought they could make a lot of money there.

I don’t say the oil companies weren’t responsible for energy policy. Everyone is responsible for energy policy and the oil companies more than most. And I am not sure Democrats are blaming the oil companies for high energy prices so much as they are crticizing them for excess profits, a different thing.

If I were an oil company, I would charge what the market will bear for my product. To do otherwise would violate my fiduciary responsibility to my stockholders. I don’t see anything that is the slightest degree immoral or wrong in that. However, in terms of public policy, others might conclude that oil company practices might result in windfall profits which are unwarranted and damaging to the economy. It is a disputable issue.

In the year 2001 President Bush had Vice President Cheney put together an engery proposal which would’ve dramatically tried to help increase energy production. It had drilling for oil in ANWAR which was blocked by the Democrats in Congress.

If Bush had his way in 2001 we would have a lot more oil being produced today and the price of oil won’t be at $133 something a barrell.

SO I CAN’T IMAGINE A SINGLE REASON WHY BUSH SHOULD BE BLAMED!!!

Furthermore Hiram if the oil companies aren’t responsible why were the Democrats trying to blame them! You can’t have it both ways.

You are defending the concept of owning oil companies and the Democrats attacking the oil companies.

Walter Hanson
Minneapolis, MN

For the same reason Bush is blaming Democrats. It’s seen as politically advantageous. I assure you one reason Bush and others are blaming Democrats is because they don’t want to discuss the destabilizing effect on energy prices resulting from war in the middle east. Politicians are looking for scapegoats and it’s an ugly process.

For what it’s worth, I don’t personally blame oil companies for high gas prices. The price of oil is determined by market forces outside their control. Whether oil companies make too much money is a separate and perhaps disputable issue.

These issues are a little more complicated than the way they are discussed in the media or by political candidates. For one thing, critizing oil companies for making excess profits isn’t necessarily the same thing as blaming them for increases in gas prices.

Here’s the problem. You yourself say there is several causes so why are the oil companies being blamed? It’s because the Democrats want to distract from the actual causes:

* Not drilling in the US (caused by those environmental votes that Democrats want)

* Extra demand (note those same environmentalists don’t care that the price soars), but the oil companies are blamed for gauging with Democrats wanting investigations instead of acknowledging demand.

* Odd Iraq’s oil production has been soaring and because of the regime change Iraq can sell more oil. I don’t see where a war is causing production to be down.

Still the end result as you admit is that the Democrats are in error blaming the oil companies.

Why do you think Democrats such as Charles Schummer, Al Franken, Amy K, and others can’t admit that? Explanation they have sold their votes for the money from environmentalists.

Walter Hanson
Minneapolis, MN

http://greatdivide.typepad.com/

I wish not to be lumped in with some of the bad attacks here. So maybe you can look at the post I made #36 and #37 and respond to that.

Walter Hanson
Minneapolis, MN

Maybe we can spin back to something else here.

You were talking about corruption of people.

We don’t have drilling for oil in ANWAR and off the coasts because liberal groups demand that Democrats vote that way. To hide the fact that they are causing the high oil prices they go and call oil companies evil.

Or are you saying that the Democrats haven’t done anything to drive up the price oil let alone gasoline with all of their policies?

Walter Hanson
Minneapolis, MN

I have to say I have often criticized companies I own, not only in mutual funds, but directly, often in pretty scathing terms. It never really occurred to me that in continuing to own companies whose management I disagreed with, was an act of hypocrisy. The company belongs to me, after all, not them.

Hamas are the bad guys now, and Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc. etc.

ya’ll bitches need to be learning something.

You apparently missed the point that the Rockerfellers aren’t calling oil profits evil. Were they do do that, you damned right people would expect them to drop their stake in oil companies.

We should live in a world where individuals have the character and integrity to align their personal actions with their values. Unfortunately, we live in a world where there are Democrats… and spineless, feckless, ignorant dinks like you.

If we lived in a world where everyone was supposed to disassociate themselves from investments just because they didn’t care for some aspect of a company’s business, we would have eight year old kids closing their savings accounts with TCF because they didn’t want to subsidize predatory lending practices.

But if Al Franken thinks oil companies are bad, he shouldn’t own their stock. Since he does, he’s a fucking fraud and a liar. He’s a model Democrat.

Quite honestly, Democrat though I may be, not even I would equate ExxonMobil with the PLO.

The things you read on right wing message boards.

Sure, I guess I wasn’t being clear. In my analogy, the house is the corporation. When you buy or sell a house or corporation, the transaction is between the buyer and the seller, not between the buyer or seller in the corporation.

My understanding is that he doesn’t own these shares directly, but through mutual funds, the ownership of which he has disclosed. For myself, I own shares in lots of companies. When they screw up, I criticize them, sometimes vehemently. But that has little or nothing to do with my decision to own stock. If I only invested in companies I agreed with in all matters, I would never invest at all. Probably none of us would.

In criticizing big oil, Al is acting against his own financial interest in theory at least. I don’t see anyting wrong with that. It’s much more of a issue for me, when you see a politician whose acts in favor of his own economic interests.

But Hiram isn’t worried, that’s not objectionable hypocrisy. He’s fucking stupid.

“Stock” represents “shares” of company ownership. A “stockholder” is someone who owns part of a company. When that company profits from its business, it pays those profits back to the shareholders.

Franken says that oil companies abuse the public for evil profit. However, he hadn’t disclosed the fact that he is an owner of said “evil enterprise.” As an owner of “big oil” Al Franken therefore is guilty of the abuse and profiteering of which he accuses others… So if Al Franken was really concerned about the profiteering ways of “big oil”… then he probably shouldn’t be one of the profiteers.

By the way, dipshit, when you buy a house, the seller gets money. Or do you really think that nobody owns any part of their house. The house is the product, dipshit, not the shareholder.

To extend the analogy first, somebody may be mowing the grass, but that in itself doesn’t prove that he owns the house.

While the managers of a company like ExxonMobil may own millions of dollars in company stock, that’s insignificant amount of the shares outstanding.

only if I had a bomb vest to martyr myself and take that slime with me Chestnut. well not really, but a stupid question merits a stupid answer.

I have friends in the IDF and many more friends living in Israel. Thank God none of them have been killed by Hamas(yet).

I am a liberal, but not a lefty peacenik.

Dip.

I may not be all that serious about it, but yes I do believe (and know for a fact) that the proceeds don’t go to ExxonMobil. It goes to the person selling you the stock.

When you buy a house, who do you think gets the money? The house?

Isn’t Hiram a Jewish name? Aren’t Jews intelligent?

I can’t believe how dense Hiram is. Talk about the elevator not going all the way to the top. He can’t even make simple correlations. And he thinks he’s absolutely correct.

Chestnut, your responses make me LOL!!!

No, I don’t. I see your ignorance issue, but that’s about all.

“II was referring to buying ExxonMobil stock.”

You seriously believe that when someone purchases ExonMobile stock that the proceeds don’t got to ExonMobile? Where the fuck do you think it goes? Who do you think sells ExonMobile stock? (hint: ExonMobile sells its stock… and it receives the proceeds from the sale.)

You’re dumber than I give you credit for, Hiram. Dumber than shit, to be precise.

“Really? Because none of our oil comes from Iran.”

See the fungibility issue.

“Furthermore, how is it possible to buy gasoline from ExonMobile and have none of that money go to ExonMobile?”

II was referring to buying ExxonMobil stock. Of course, the money you pay for gas you from ExxonMobil goes to support terrorism.

“Are you really implying that no money goes to an oil company via purchasing products from them or investing in them?”

Purchasing product yes, buying stock, no.

“Really, I’d like you to sketch out this mysterious business and investment plan.”

Stocks are bought and sold by shareholders to each other. The oil company is a stranger to this transaction. There are certain exceptions, some of which I could go into if you like, but they aren’t all that significant, and probably not relevant to the way mutual funds do business.

Oil is fungible. By buying oil at high prices in the market, we are directly subsidizing Iran even if it isn’t Iranian oil that’s being shipped to the US.

“If I thought oil was such a bad industry, I would select funds that excluded oil investments.”

Just out of curiousity, why? Stock is pretty fungible too. If you don’t own it, somebody else will. Your decision to own or not own stock has no bearing at all on what the company does.

“They’re only corrupt if they hide the benefit to themselves. It’s been a while since anyone posted such a fucking stupid comment.”

Are you saying corruption isn’t corruption if it’s exposed. If a politician takes a bribe, it’s still a bribe whether people know about it or not.

“So when I invest in IBM, none of my money goes to IBM?”

That’s correct.

“Does the SEC know that?”

Yes.

“If IBM doesn’t get the money, where does it go?”

To the person who sold you the shares.

Amazing.

Let’s start with how much oil the U.S. imports from Iran. None. So none of my purchase at the pump goes to Iran. And also, if I thought oil was such a bad industry, I would select funds that excluded oil investments. Al Franken could do the same. He chooses not to. Which means that his bluster about big oil is all bullshit, that he doesn’t personally believe. … or he’s just as immoral, ignorant and hypocritical as you are.

Investing in organizations that run counter to your morals is NOT a fact of economic life. You can make choices. Or you can be spineless, ignorant dink like you.

Hiram then dug his hole with this: “What do you say about candidates who take positions that benefit themselves econmically? Does that make them corrupt?”

No, you dumb shit. They’re only corrupt if they hide the benefit to themselves. It’s been a while since anyone posted such a fucking stupid comment.

But then you topped yourself: “Is it your position that Al Franken has invested in evil companies? If not, how can you criticize Al for owning them?”

Have you read anything, and if so, do you understand what you’ve read? You really are stupid, Hiram. My position is that if Al Franken thinks these companies are so aweful, then Al Franken shouldn’t profit from them. If Al Franken doesn’t think the companies he’s invested in are evil, then he should shut the fuck up. … advice you’d do well to follow, I might ad.

Hiram then said: “You know, when Al Franken, or in fact his mutual fund manager, buys ExxonMobil stock, not the slightest portion of a penny of that money goes to the company, or to the Iranian mullahs.”

Really? So when I invest in IBM, none of my money goes to IBM? Does the SEC know that? If IBM doesn’t get the money, where does it go? If Al Franken invests in ExonMobile, all the money invested in ExonnMobile goes to ExonMobile. Do you understand how investments work? You are really quite stupid Hiram.

“On the other hand, when any one of us buys gas, a significant portion of the price we pay goes directly to the Iranian government.”

Really? Because none of our oil comes from Iran. Furthermore, how is it possible to buy gasoline from ExonMobile and have none of that money go to ExonMobile? Are you really implying that no money goes to an oil company via purchasing products from them or investing in them? Really, I’d like you to sketch out this mysterious business and investment plan.

Not only are your arguments weak, they’re borderline retarded.

“Simple enough so far right?

“The Democrats are in effect attacking oil companies for making too much money. Al Franken owns investments which own oil companies.”

But you see we all own oil companies, one way or anther. So if all of us were barred from criticizing the companies we own, they would never be subject to criticism even when it was fair. This doesn’t make sense.

I have to say, I criticize companies I own stock in all the time. I see nothing wrong with that. If it’s hypocritical, it’s that low grade hypocrisy that’s part of the background of everything we do in modern life.

My position is that you are free to invest in companies, and equally free to criticize them as much as you like. I think that’s the much healthier position for our politics and also for the company involved, frankly.

As for point #33, the fact is we aren’t going to be drilling in ANWR. So does that mean you, that any of us really, are off the hook morally for paying high oil prices that subsidize international terrorism?

Summer said that if we were getting a million of barrells a day from ANWAR we will get maybe a cent relief on the price of gasoline. yet at the same time at the hearing a couple of days ago he said if Saudi Arabia put a million more barrells of oil a day on the market the price drop will be like sixty cents. So why does Summer think Saudi crude oil production is so much better? Because the environmental groups in the Democrat party which give money don’t want drilling. (That’s the corruption you were referring to in #31.

That is the financial interests you should look at and criticize.

As for Al Gore at least he seems to be directing his investments to what he says he believes in.

Walter Hanson
Minneapolis, MN

Maybe this is where you’re not getting it. The Democrats hold hearings. They say that oil companies make too much money and they are ripping off consumers to make money for their investors.

Simple enough so far right?

The Democrats are in effect attacking oil companies for making too much money. Al Franken owns investments which own oil companies.

Simple enough so far right?

Republicans have the position that you are free to invest in companies and to try to encourage legal business such as drilling for oil in the US. THE DEMOCRATS DON’T! Al Franken if he wants to can invest in those businesses. At the same time there are businesses that have created mutal funds which are suppose to reflect not investing in politically incorrect businesses (oil, nuclear power, defense, etc.)

Still simple enough right?

Franken instead of investing in funds which are politically correct wants to stay invested in the businesses invested in oil and at the same time attack them for making big profits? (covers your post #32)

See the problem! A shareholder benefiting from his company, but attacking them. Now mind you if you can argue that Franken has bought his shares to try to help support a corporate resolution that is politically correct that will be another matter. But to the best of my knowledge this isn’t the case here.

As for your point on #33 I want us drilling for oil in places like ANWAR and off the coasts of Florida and California so we don’t have to buy oil from Iran or whereever. What’s stopping it. Those same Democrats who were criticizing the oil companies Hiram. To be exact they lie through their teeth. Chuck Summer (who helped recruit Al Franken said a couple of weeks ago that if we were getting a million barrells a day from ANWAR

Walter Hanson
Minneapolis, MN

So you support Iranian terrorism, it’s just that Al Gore supports it more? If that makes you feel better, go for it.

I think my arguments are pretty strong, too strong for you to respond substantively it seems.

This notion that when one owns a stock, or a fund in Al’s case, the person somehow waives the right to criticize the corporation is so remarkably convenient for corporation. Since most of us, one way or another, own most or even all the big companies, this logic would seem to exempt corporate America from any sort of criticism at all. Does this make any sense at all? Doesn’t it make vastly more sense to say that because we all have a stake in what corporate America does, we all have a right even a duty to criticize it when we feel it is doing something wrong?

I use less gas in my boats and watercraft all summer than AlBore uses in one hour is a gulfsream 5, I suppose I care more for the environment than he does?

Where does the real hypocrisy lie?

Is it your position that Al Franken has invested in evil companies? If not, how can you criticize Al for owning them?

If it’s legal, sure. Lot’s of us do things that benefit Iran a lot more than investing in stock. Where do you think the money you pay at the pump goes?

How about financially backing drug dealers for a cut of their profits?

I don’t go that far. I don’t support investment in illegal or criminal enterprises. Last time I checked, ExxonMobil was neither. I don’t own them directly, but I do own them through mutual funds, and I sleep just fine at night.

“Do you really believe that ones investment decisions are separate from their moral imperatives?”

I really do. Anyone who owns a diversified portfolio of stocks who will inevitably own shares in companies that have policies they agree with and that they disagree with. That is an inescapable fact of economic life.

I would guess that most of them make big money from the things they publicly and loudly bash Republicans for, while ignorant morons lap it up with glee.

Making money from Halliburton and oil (not to mention the money DiFi’s husband made on war contracts) is one of the biggest forms of hypocrisy I’ve seen yet out of these lying buffoons.

Talk about big, fat lying liars and the lies they tell!